At 57 years of age, I have been very fortunate in my life to be successfully involved in various competitive sports – HUMAN AND ANIMAL. Only in the pigeon sport have I ever heard of evaluating athletes by “EYE SIGN”. I have never witnessed nor heard of coaches, owners, general mangers or parents looking into the eyes of their players, young children or livestock with a “jeweler’s loupe” to see if they were going to be a good performer, top breeder, sprinter, long distance athlete, etc.
I have owned, raced and bred horses. I have gone to several top sales and auctions, and I have never heard or witnessed an eye sign theory to select racing or breeding stock in horses.
The same applies in dog racing, fighting chickens, dog fighting or other types of animal competition that is legal or illegal. Nobody has any theories or evaluation procedures with eye sign. WHY? Because they would be laughed out of the sport for such a theory. It is ridiculous for those sports or competitions, and it is just as silly to believe they can be used in the pigeon sport to help with success.
I read advertisements about eye sign specialists, racing eyes, sprinting eyes, distance eyes, eye sign pairing and mating, graders, teachers and scientific research about eye sign. Only in the pigeon sport do some fanciers believe and practice these methods. Of course, there are other methods we also use in the pigeon sport for evaluation and culling that many have faith in, such as wing formation, strong or weak back, soft or hard muscle, throat configuration, color of toe nails, short or long keel, and maybe 20 more physical characteristics that are used as methods of selecting breeding or flying stock.
In all of these theories never do I hear mention the one major requirement necessary for the racing pigeon to be successful: The ability to find his way home, “HOMING ABILITY”. The intelligence and navigation skills to be 100-600 miles from home and race and navigate to return home to his loft the same day. Without this ability to home and navigate, all the other qualities mean nothing. Yet the graders, teachers, master breeders, specialists, etc. never seem to be concerned about this one aspect of our sport.
Can they grade intelligence, heart, determination, motivation or desire just by handling a bird, opening his wing, looking at the throat or looking into the eyes? PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK! YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS AND REALLY BELIEVE THIS IS POSSIBLE! To spend your money and time applying these methods to achieve success is foolish.
Like I said before, only in the pigeon sport do these experts exist (self proclaimed experts). WHY? Because we in the sport look for any short cut to success. There is none. The only way to be successful in this sport is the old fashioned way, to work for it, and earn it.
The sad thing about these so called experts graders and eye sign experts is that I truly believe they think they have the ability to select birds by their methods.
Only in the pigeon sport can they find individuals gullible and naive enough to listen and sometimes practice their methods. No other sport or competition would consider such theories with a straight face.
We talk about our sport being on the decline, and there are many reasons for it. What a shame if a new flyer gets involved with one of our eye sign experts, and spends his time and money on their methods. After a few years, if he stays that long, with little or no positive results, we lose another potential fancier and maybe a few of his friends.
Yes, I am being hard on these individuals because I TRULY BELIEVE THEY ARE HURTING OUR SPORT for some small financial gain or a personal ego trip, or both.
As I have said in many other articles, you have the best graders in the world, the training basket and race day. By training and racing your birds you will be evaluating yourself as well as evaluating and culling your birds.
You as a trainer may need some improvement in different aspects of the sport: feeding, training, medication, trapping and loft management. It is hard for us to accept the blame for poor results or heavy loses. We much rather blame the birds, the weather, the transport company, or some other area, but not our own abilities or methods.
To select breeders and flyers is a very simple procedure. PERFORMANCE should be your only criteria. Does the bird come from a winning family, generation after generation of excellent race results? If the answer is yes, then the bird is worth taking a chance on in the breeding or flying loft.
Performance means the type of results necessary to compete in your area: speeds, distances, weather and land conditions. If the bird’s family has shown that it can be competitive, that is all you need to know. Forget about his eyes, wings, back, muscles, throat or keel.
Occasionally I will go to a auction, especially if it is sponsored by an excellent flyer and offers birds with race records. I see these domestic birds, some with multiple diplomas, sell for much less then birds with foreign bands and no race results. The excuses are that he is to long, has no chest, has a weak back, has no breeding eye, etc. FORGET THOSE THEORIES! The bird has already proven itself in race competition with multiple diplomas. He has the ability, and he has already proven it. You would have no problem taking a chance on breeding this bird with another performance bird with the same ability.
“SAME ABILITY” means proper breeding: speed to speed and distance to distance. If the bird has multiple diplomas at various speeds and distances that is even better. You really should not care about eye sign, or how the bird handles.
The sport is changing everyday. New ideas and theories are advertised, sold and practiced. However, the basic principle still applies: no homing ability and navigating skills, no positive results. You cannot find these abilities by looking into the eyes. Regular training and racing and selecting breeding and flying stock for performance results and bloodlines is the only path to success.
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Article Written by: Bob Prisco
I’m certainly “new” to the sport of pigeon racing, at least in years of effort, but I’ve always in my life followed the sport and its many fascinations. I know it’s late to be throwing in an opinion on this long and well fought theory of “eye-sign” but here’s what I think. Great racing birds are bred from great racing birds ie: winners to winners. Performance, health and proper training is everything. Eye-sign is a weak theory at best.
Personally, in my short career of racing pigeons, I’ve found that “Black Feet” seems to be prevalent on my best birds. Thus, I’ve always bred to the black foot theory. My best club racers have black feet and I don’t even need a magnifying glass to see it. Those birds with pink feet or grey feet never have produced a winner at my loft. This year I’ve taken notice to the length of the toe-nail on my black footed racers. I’ve now come to the conclusion that black feet along with long toe-nails (at least .250 inches long) are the best of the best. In the coming years of flying I will test this theory, keeping immaculate records along with race results and post my findings here for everyone to consider. AND please keep an open mind, for this is just another tool for the fancier to use. lol
Birds like the pigeons we race have strange & varied eye colors, as well as other physical features. BUT it’s what’s in their brain along with physical strength/stamina created by “fantastic health” that matters the most. These attributes are fostered by breeding the best to the best and maintaining the healthiest loft possible. It’s just that simple. I have not nor will I ever fall prey to the foolish notions of eye-sign any more than I would the color of feet or the length of toe-nails. But I will certainly keep an open mind.
CLARENCE FLEETWOOD I didnot think you could look in a pigeon eye an grade it until I TOOK 30 PIGEONS IN 1991 AT A AUCTION IN SLIDELL LA.and under a house lamp light MARC MASSAIO of VACAVILLE CA. pick the best 2 hens I ever had and the distance they was good at! that was the first time I met MARC.I think eyesign is another tool to use, if you know what to look for.
Thank you Clarence, and you are right, it is only a tool and only useful if you learn how to use it, glad Marc was able to show you a different way to view these incredible athletes.
Hi Bob its only tool i use to me there is no other the basket tells you the story it is that simple not eye
sign just the good old basket Brad.
Myron…please stay in Belgium…mate best to best…the basket does the rest…
Flyalong, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Myron? The basket finds your best racers only not your best breeders. If you rely on the basket only ,to select breeders then when you race in the real long distance events you usually find that you have lost one or both of the parents by racing them when an exceptional bird comes along.
Hi Kevin it depends on how you breed if a person wishes to use eye sign its up to them
but i use the basket and throat is for me i do not know of any good flyers that use the eye
to win or breeders they use the basket and the throat Brad
Mr. Prisco is correct…My mentor..Doc Zimmerman..1st flyer in the state of Washington to get 600 and 700 mile birds DAY OF TOSS on eye sign….I prefer a bird with two of them (eyes)..Why do pigeon flyers make this game so hard??…Mate best to best and MR. BASKET will do the rest!!!!!
I believe that eyesign theory can be established as yes or no. It is scientific study rather than blank talking. Everything should has a number. For example: the pupil in one side should not be different in size in comparison with the other side. The more the differences in size between two pupils, the less ability the bird in racing. We should have a table of sizes, ratios, colors of the two eyes. The data to fill the table should be taken from at least a hundred of birds that won some certain races. For examples 100 winners of 500 miles have diameter of pupil as exact 1/10 and 1/100 inches with no variances. If one of the winners of 500 miles race has the size of its pupil different from that of the pool, the size property cannot be a criteria to judge the bird of this distance. Another examle: the differences of the colors of 2 eyes is not a criteria to judge a bird. As I know, up to date, all eyesign experts cannot have any number to support their expertise. Therefore, the eyesign theory has not proven to be true or false yet. Even if the eyesign theory may be discovered in the future, the eyesign experts are in no position to talk about it.
@AnH MY Tran ,do not agree on this point about the pupil.I have had two hens both related that had totally difference size pupils and they both raced very well for me all distances up to 700km in hard going.So at theorie is rubbish.
Well if we’re gonna dance we will undoubtedly step on someones toes; So maestro some music please.
What if I told you all that BOTH of these perspectives are right, true and correct?
If you believe eyesign is a farce, you are absolutely right, it will never help you in any way what so ever!
But if you believe eyesign has at least potential, seek knowledge and understanding then put that knowledge to good use, you may well find YOU my friend are correct!
Most wanna be pigeon fanciers are like a dog that chases a car, and catches it – now what – they have no clue where to go or what to do next. Oh they think they do, but most are puppets doing what others tell them is the “right” way.
I read all these posts with a grin because the world will always be flat for some people! Eye sign is a valuable tool unless you are too narrow minded or too lazy to learn how to use it. Not every eyesign enthusiast uses eyesign the same way OR even looks for the same things in the eye! This is part of why this is such an elusive tool.
Eyesign is NOT a functional trait for picking a race winner PERIOD! Yes you can see health indications in the eye, but you cannot with any certainty pic a RACE WINNER BY LOOKING AT THE EYE! Yes there are some indicators as to what the bird may be capable of achieving but that is where it stops for determining a birds ability to race.
ANY PIGEON on the right day with a solid pedigree, in extreme good health, well trained and well motivated can win a race on any given day at a distance they were bred for where all the elements are in their favor, most sadly never repeat, PERIOD!
Eyesign is a tool for the breeding pen, the use of it can greatly increase your percentage of top performers bred from your loft, if you learn how to put it to proper use. However if you have a terrible loft location, you may never win a race, it is that simple. That may sound like a preemptive excuse to some but it is not. Because of all the variables on race day, one race a race pigeon does not make. We must look for consistency from our birds; the top 5 – 10 %…but wait just one cotton picking minute! Are you judging your birds or someone else’s on one young bird season or one old bird season? Some families mature later and are better old birds than young, and the opposite is also true, some birds shine as young birds and are quickly eclipsed when old bird racing is well underway!
So where are you picking your next crop of breeders from? Or do you do like the masses and chunk it all and buy new breeders every year?
There are birds who never win a race; yet who consistently clock when the day is against them in the top 5%, THESE ARE THE ONES TO STRIVE FOR and location and wind is a big factor in who is first on race day particularly in smaller competition when there is much distance between lofts.
As pigeon racers we play the percentages when we want to breed and race competitive birds and we do it in every aspect; except for those who are lazy…or think they have arrived.
We start with the pedigree or bloodline, why do you buy new breeding stock? To increase your odds of breeding a winner?
Do you pick a bird with a “strong back”? Would it be to increase your odds of winning? What about a “good” wing? or “soft” feather? or tight vents?
These are ALL “PRESUMED TOOLS” to increase your chances of winning! The laughable part is birds NOT possessing these desired traits WIN RACES EVERY YEAR! AND from TOP BLOODLINES ALSO! So it is with eyesign!
We all know that location, wind speed & direction, health, training, feed and motivation play a huge part in the outcome on race day, not to mention a certain element of luck we have no say over, like predators, hunters, wires, and weather; so again we work the percentages in all things.
This ongoing discussion is much like politics and is it more advantageous to the populous to be governed from a liberal or a conservative perspective…it is an ongoing battle of beliefs.
If you absolutely do not believe eyesign will work for you as a tool to increase your percentage of breeding better birds, guess what; YOU ARE RIGHT! IT WON”T!
Yet at the same time if you believe, even if you aren’t sure but you want to believe, and you learn how to put it to proper use, EYESIGN JUST MAY WORK FOR YOU; it works for me and for others!
I for one am always glad to see there are still non believers out there, gives us believers a real leg up on you.
This argument is no different than any other in our sport.
widowhood vs natural;
light system vs dark system vs no system;
training on the line of flight vs training around the horn;
well you get the idea.
We are a lot which are set in our ways and for the most part are not willing to compromise or keep our mouth shut, we want to convince the unconscionable our way is right, when there really is no right or wrong only better and not-so-much.
So go the direction you believe is best for you; keep your head in the sand and deny the possibilities, OR lift up your head and see the light with a new perspective and a real direction.
What ever you decide, it cost the same amount to feed winners as it does the also rand’s & you are paying the feed bill so make yourself happy listen or don’t listen, but if you ever stop searching for answers or trying to learn, you will not get consistently better, that is a given.
Have fun make your mama proud and go breed a loft full of winners!
Bud
Hi CVS there are many roads to rome and to win and as i said before i know of no one that uses eye sign and that are the good flyers also if it works for you thats fine but its not the only way
to win that is a fact not fiction Brad.
So… I guess then since YOU know of NO ONE that uses eye sign, everyone should just stop using it as a tool, period.
I don’t believe I ever commented using eye sign was the only way to win, what I said was it is a tool. If you learn how to use it you may well find it beneficial, if you however are so narrow minded as to dismiss it all together as a tool used in the selection and pairing of breeders,oh well.
Hi Bud i never said that i just said if it works for you thats fine but we both know there are many ways
to fly and win so don’t get your back up everyone to there own thing its what works for that flier
Brad.
Hi Myron,
The eye pictured with the article is for reference purposes only and is not from the author of the article.
WELL BUD OR CVS, I’D LIKE TO SAY YOU REALLY HIT THE NAIL, RIGHT ON THE HEAD & THOSE THAT LISTEN WILL PROFIT. I’D REALLY LOVE TO KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE & WHO YOU ARE.
NOW FOR ADMINISTRATION :::: WHY CAN’T ALL POSTS BE SEEN AS THEY ARE WRITTEN ????????????????? MEANING FOLLOWING AN IN-LINE DATING SYSTEM ONE POST AFTER THE OTHER LIKE ALL OTHER DICUSSION SITES.
THE POST BELOW THIS ONE ::: THE GUY SAYS HE AGREES WITH A POST & MOST WOULD THINK IT WAS THE ONE ABOVE WHAT HE READ, **** BUT IT’S NOT *****.????
WHY ???????????????? CAN’T YOU FIX THIS TO WORK PROPERLY.?????????
Myron ;
About 10 years ago , on the site “racingpigeonforum” ,you and Bob Fleming had several discussions about “eye sign” . Bob Fleming was a eye sign expert also.
On several times, he stated the following ,”The truth is that you have NEVER bred a winner Myron , for yourself or anyone else. You have Never raced birds in competition either , or raised a family of winning pigeons , so what makes you think you are qualified to offer advise on how it’s done when you have NEVER done it yourself.” Sept. 4 , 2003 , Bob Fleming.
“So Myron , why don’t you and your friend there get some birds , build a coop , join a club ,and race , win something , ANYTHING ,then and ONLY then will you be a pigeon flyer, til then your just a phoney wanne be . A teller of tales , a blower of smoke , Fairytales and Fantasies.” Sept.5 , 2003 . Bob Fleming” http://www.racingpigeonforum.com
Myron , you never replied to the comments.
So , PLEASE , tell us what you have done to back -up your qualifications !
Are you offering advice without personal experience ?
BOB, YOU ARE JUST LIKE HIM & WOULD RATHER REPEAT LIES TO MAKE YOURSELF LOOK BIGGER THAN YOU ARE..
I GUESS KEVIN HAS YOU PEGGED & YOU’RE TRYING TO TAKE IT OUT ON ME.
WELL, GUESS WHAT, IT’S NOT GOING TO WORK, BECAUSE YESTERDAY AFTER A FLYER FROM WISCONSIN READ THE ARTICLE IN THE DIGEST THAT KEVIN WROTE, HE CALLED ME & INVITED ME TO FLY TO BELGIUM WITH HIM.
SO ooooooooooo, HOW THEM FOR APPLES ??? MEDIUM DISTANCE FLYER.!!!!!!
Myron ;
Have a safe trip and I mean that !
I am sure the Belgium fanciers will be happy to see you.
From one of your quotes, “Just because “we” were born with the eye sign spoon in our mouths, doesn’t mean that everyone was”.(Sept. 22 , 2003) I am a sure the Belgium fanciers would be happy to see this great gift you have been born with.
When they ask you, how you have applied this great gift and what have you accomplished in the sport , WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TELL THEM ?
I guess “middle distance ” can be different in every country. Here in the USA according to the “National organizations AU & IF and magazines that award recognition for SHORT , MIDDLE and LONG DISTANCE AWARDS” Long distance is over 375 miles. But you know that because you have helped so many fanciers “win”these awards with your BORN GIFT and I sure you have won a few yourself ( but you don’t want to brag) applying you “born gift”.
I don’t know how the Florida fanciers are going to do without you when you leave for Belgium , but the BELGIUM FANCIERS are in for a REAL LAUGH.
Myron , unlike you I have pigeons to attend to , so this is my last response.
Have a safe trip and PLEASE stay as long as you like and spread your great gift
in Belgium .
Thanks Myron for the back up I am in Texas and have had birds for most [45] of the past 47 years
WELL BOB,
I DON’T KNOW HOW WELL YOU KNEW FLEMING, BUT IT’S NOT TRUE. IF YOU WANT THE ANSWERS TO THAT GO TO THE ALBERTA CLASSIC SITE IN THE ARCHIVES NOW, BECAUSE THE SITE HAS BEEN RE-DONE & YOU’LL FIND ALL THE ANSWERS YOU NEED. HE’S BEEN DEAD NOW FOR NINE YEARS & YOU HAVE NOTICED IT’S BEEN FAIRLY QUIET NOW, RIGHT.??? IF YOU MET HIM IN PERSON, YOU MUST KNOW WHY HE ACTED THIS WAY.
IF YOU THINK THAT EYESIGN IS OF NO VALUE. OR — YOU THINK I CAN’T PICK OUT YOUR BEST BIRDS, INVITE ME TO YOUR LOFT. BUT, *** WHEN I PICK THE WINNERS, & YOUR BEST BREEDERS, I GET TO TAKE THEM HOME.
Myron ;
You continue to avoid the questions . Let the individuals on this site hear about your qualifications. What you have achieved and how you have applied your talent in the sport to be successful.
I never meet Bob Fleming but he sure hit a sore nerve with you when he asked the questions about your accomplishments . You never answered the questions 10 years ago and you won’t answer them now.
Myron , I don’t need you to come to my loft and select our best racers and breeders.
You can read it on our site , it really would not be a fair test for your self proclaimed talent. Besides what do I get if you can’t pick the best birds – ” A COPY OF YOUR BOOK”
You are a social member in one of the best combines in FLORIDA and USA.
With some of the best flyers in the sport , I guess they are lined up at your door asking for your advice. Are they asking you to give seminar’s , I bet it is the toughest ticket in town to get – SOLD OUT EVERY NIGHT.
Myron , how do you sleep at night , you give advice to fanciers – they spend their time and money with no success. I guess it is better than spending your own money to prove your talent. I guess Fleming was right , you never will answered the questions because you won’t face the truth and will not admit to your failure.
Myron , if I can save just one fancier from following your practices all this conversation will be worth it.
Hi Bob, just a line to say that my result of our 1st race from Nisa 183 miles is on my webpage as promised. Myron made some eyesign pairs via pictures sent by email and I have the yearlings from those matings along with my new race partners best to best matings and some pedigree matings I made from stock bought in the UK and Spain. We race as Vai & Vem or in English Come & Go. in the Odiaxere club.
I entered 7 eyesign pair offspring 7 Best to best offspring and 6 pedigree offspring to race 1 20 bird limit as per the rules in the yearling Club/Fed/Combine race.
It was a strong SE face wind and the winning velocity was 1095 meter per minute.
The result was a bird only 7.5 months old bred by one of Myrons super eye pairs won the yearling club by 30 meters per minute 216 birds it is second Fed (the 1st and second clear by over 30 meteres per minute) 486 birds in the yearling race and it is 2nd Combine 1,121 birds in the yearling event.
Not only that the velocity 0f 1095 makes the bird 8th from the liberation of over 10 thousand birds in the whole combine race. So Thanks Myron. for anyone interested details of my experiment in the 1st 6 races this season can be found here http://algarvepigeonracing.webs.com
click on “Yearling race entries” at the right page top then scroll down.
Sunday 10th March 2013 birds to go to Sardoal 170 miles are already posted, Kev
Kevin…A 183 mile race is NO more then a training race..the only *PERSON* who know’s a Champion pigeon is MR. BASKET…not Myron
Flyalong a 183 mile race is a race and the yearling was 8th from 12,000 birds since then the same bird has had 2 more races finishing 3rd in 1 and finishing 1st again on Sunday the 24th March.
I bet you wish you had a pigeon like this one. as regards 183 miles how far do you expect the birds to fly in their 1st race?
The bird is bred to fly Barcelona 600 plus miles in a couple of years time but in the meantime this 10 month old yearling is showing the way home to the cfream of the sprint Middle distance birds.
Kevin…I am very glad that eye sign plays a big part in your Breeding program…yes I realize many roads lead to Rome…I am curious..When you talk about 500 and 600 mile pigeon racing are you talking about 2 day European type racing or the United States style of 500 and 600 mile birds Day of Toss..12 to 16 hours on the wing
I am talking about proper long distance racing where we clock on the day from 500 miles 14 to 16 hours on the wing and clock a few birds from our loft too.
I have clocked a few tmes in the hours of darkness as well one bird at 1.20 am in the morning in total darkness but in our National race from Barcelona our birds flying to the South of Portugal Algarve measure 650 miles in a straight line but fly 800 miles plus due to the Mountains and topography of the land. On normal hard Barcelona National we can clock on day 2 but when it is really tough and the weather is very hot high 30s centigrade or more, daybreak ot just after on day 3 is good if you have anything good enough and tough enough to come, fortunately for us we have.
And the 10 month old latebred bird is already a champion because with 2 wins and a third place from his only 3 races all into a strong face wind. I sent him to from a possible 4 says he is Champion Yearling in the Velocidade with 298 points from a possible 300. Not too bad eh from a pairing made only by eyesign from two birds that never won a race or came close.
Mr Basket had no part in his breeding, not only that I have other latebreds that are also over achieving
Flyalong. 183 miles is a race,how far do you expect a pigeon to race on his 1st attempt? and my bird beat 12,000 other birds in it, my bird has also placed 3rd and won another race on 24th March in the only 3 races of his career he is of course winning out of turn by beating the cream of the Portuguese sprint and mid distance birds as he is bred for 500 miles plus.
Mr basket as you call it had no part in his breeding as neither bird that bred him ever won a race or came close.
Flyalong just another Update for you, most of the Eyesign matings have produced birds that have scored in their 1st race season, Our Champion yearling has been rubber stamped as Champion because he has easily won the gold rings in our club for Sprint and for General (which includes a 250 mile race on Saturday 30th March 2013) His race record reads 1st, 3rd, 1st, 7th from his only 4 races he has been to.
I must thank Myron for his efforts and for putting the parents of this Champion and our other birds who have already scored together for us using just EYESIGN to do it.
Bet you wish you had a bird like this one Eh?
Flyalong, 183 miles is a race for a young bird of 10 months of age, and he has won 2 of them placed 3rd and 7th in his other 2 races so 4 prizes in 4 races and he is already Champion bird for yearling velocidade and fore Yearling General, Velocidade and Meo Fundo.
Not bad for a bird bred for the distance eh? bet you wish you had a bird like him. top 8 velocity in the Combine from 12,000 birds and 4 federation prizes too against the cream of the Portuguese sprint and middle distance birds.
By the way many of the other ybs from the eyesign birds have scored too and thrashed the birds from my pedigree matings and your mate Best to Best Mr basket, lol. you can see the results of the tests that have been going on for the first 5 yearling races this season 2013 in the Algarve Portugal. On my website.
Why dont you drop Myron an email if you ask him politely he may help you out and make some pairs for you!
I agree with your article
Your results are very good but you only race to 480 miles so thats just middle distance racing and in pigeon selection there are more ways than one to skin a cat.
That being said We will be trying to win these kind of short races this 2013 season whilst educating our birds for the seasons ahead when they will be more at home over 500 miles and lots further in 30s 40s degrees centigrade. I have added some Roland Janssens for this my first real season here in a new country and will be trying some of these birds this season to hopefully shake them up at the 175 mile sprints to 300 miles. Time will tell how well we do against a few hundred in the club and 10 thousand in the full Federation.